Alles Voor Internet / Tout Pour Internet/alles voor internet.iso/MacInternet™/Info/appletalk-ethernet.txt

Internet Message Format | 1992-06-29 | 16.4 KB | [TEXT/UNIX]

Date: Mon, 29 Jun 92 19:42 WET
From: "Alun J. Carr" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Summary of responses to Ethernet-Appletalk query [*]

Enclosed, as promised, the replies I received to my query about
connecting an AppleTalk network of Macs to a campus-wide
Ethernet.

For less than eight Macs, it looks like it's worth buying individual
Ethernet adaptors (e.g. NuvoLink), but beyond that it's worth
investing in a router from Cayman or Shiva (if you can tolerate
the narrower bandwidth).

I haven't made up my mind yet, but I'll probably go the NuvoLink route.

Alun

Alun J. Carr, Mech. Eng. Dept., UCD, Belfield, Dublin 4, Ireland.
Internet: [e-mail]

(----- cut here -----------------------------------------------------------)

From:   IN%"[e-mail]"  "Phil Ryan" 23-JUN-1992 00:36:58.68
To:     [e-mail]
CC:
Subj:   Appletalk-Ethernet Gateways

Alun

Yes, it can be done, quite easily. I was in a Physics department last year
and we ran a large (30 - 40) network of Macs which were 'Webster
Multiported' connected to the campus-wide Ethernet.

This particular device (cost about $A5000 - maybe as low as $US2000?) has
four plug in ports for separate Appletalk sections, and then an Ethernet
in/out line. The four separate Appletalk bits can be logically arranged as
one single Appletalk zone.

The beauty of the thing was that as Mac users, we had access to
Ethernet-type services like TCP/IP, Telnet, ftp etc, which would function
at the Appletalk limit speed of 230 kbps (rather than the 5 or 10 Mbps for
real Ethernet) - which is quite OK for terminal-type stuff. To do real time
image processing over this method is not good - you would then want full
ethernet to the Mac that you wanted to be able to do such things (eg you
have some sophisticated plotting package on a Sun which you would like to
run on the Mac's screen 500 m away - although these Multigate gateways
would be able to reproduce the stuff (via X-windows or something), the
speed of the connection would be frustratingly slow). However, if you think
that a modem is normally 2.4 kbps (or the really fast ones are 9.6 kbps -
about 1 kilobyte per second), then the 230 kbps for Apppletalk is not much
of a limit, particularly for up to 10 or 20 Macs.

Have fun... sorry that I don't have the address of Webster, but they should
be advertised in the US Mac mags.

Phil Ryan
DSTO Mrl Melbourne, Australia

==============================

From:   IN%"[e-mail]" 23-JUN-1992 00:37:38.37
To:     [e-mail]
CC:
Subj:   AppleTalk-Ethernet interfaces (Q)

  >From: "Alun J. Carr" <[e-mail]>
  >
  >I suppose I should start with the obligatory 'I hope this isn't a FAQ...',
  >but I won't, just to be different.
  >
  >The Problem
  >===========
  >
  >I intend to link a couple of Macs in my research group together with a
  >DeskWriter C using an AppleTalk network.  These machines will not have
  >slots available for connection to the campus-wide Ethernet (and the
  >servers that have a small amount of Mac software on them).  I understand
  >that there are boxes you can put on the AppleTalk network that act as
  >some sort of gateway on to the Ethernet (albeit with low bandwidth).

The Answer
==========

There are two potential solutions to your problem.  I only have direct
experience with the second solution.  The first is to use SCSI
ethernet connectors rather than NuBus ethernet connectors.  They are
reportedly slower than NuBus, but almost certainly faster than
LocalTalk.  If you are on ethernet, then NFS/Share software from
Intercon can be used to make NFS filesystems accessible to the Mac.


The second involves using a router of some type.  I only have
experience with one type of router, namely a GatorBox (and its
associated software, GatorShare).  This is a low maintenance solution.
Once the system is properly configured, it works transparently from
both the Macintosh and the Ethernet side.  If you have at least a
limited understanding of networks, it should not be too difficult to
set up.  The optional Gatorshare software allows Macintoshes to access
NFS filesystems as if they were Appleshare systems.  There are only
two drawbacks to the Gatorbox:  one is that it runs the file service
at Appletalk speeds, and the other is the initial capital cost of the
hardware and software (in the US, about $3000 with educational
discount).  For more information about this product, you could contact
[e-mail] on the Internet.  I believe that there are other
products that will do the AppleTalk/Ethernet routing, but to my
knowledge they don't have Appleshare file sharing software available.

I am not an employee of Cayman, but I have used their products.
Thomas A. Russ                                             [e-mail]
USC/ISI, 4676 Admiralty Way, Marina del Rey, CA 90292      [phone]

==============================

From:   IN%"[e-mail]"  "Johnny Borders" 23-JUN-1992 04:37:31.93
To:     [e-mail]
CC:
Subj:   RE: AppleTalk-Ethernet interfaces (Q)

Right. They're called routers. There are many to choose from, but they are
also expensive. $2500 and up. I don't think a bridge will do..

==============================

From:   IN%"[e-mail]" 23-JUN-1992 12:38:50.99
To:     [e-mail]
CC:
Subj:   RE: Ethernet for your Mac's

Hi Alun,

Regarding your:

The Problem
===========

... These machines will not have slots available for connection to the
campus-wide Ethernet (and the servers that have a small amount of Mac
software on them).  I understand that there are boxes you can put on the
AppleTalk network that act as some sort of gateway on to the Ethernet
(albeit with low bandwidth).

Answer
======

We're using all kinds of networks at our University of which Ethernet is
the most wide-spread. There is a possibility to connect a "GATOR-Box"
local-talk to Ethernet gateway to the local Mac network. The Physics
Faculty is using it with phase I (which is very tedious, because everybody
else is using phase II). It is certainly the cheapest way to do it, but
it's also the slowest option.

We use a box called the NuvoLink SC from NuvoTech to connect our Classic
II's (former Classic I's) to the Ethernet via the SCSI port. The
transmission speed goes up to 40 Kilobytes per second which is pretty fast.
We only tried the NuvoLink on Classics and Mac LC's but they should work on
any Mac. One drawback is that the driver which resides on the Mac is
decoding the incomming messages, also if they aren't meant for you. This
uses up to 25% of the computer's processing speed if network activity is
high. It doesn't bother me much.

I think the Nuvo is wonderful, because it directly connects to the network.
This gives me quick access to a number of drives that were created on a SUN
IPX workstation using the CAP60 software, which can be found on INTERNET
(try ARCHIE eg. TELNET 128.167.254.179). This way I have enough hard disk
capacity for my Classic II with only a 40 Meg drive. Programs I don't use a
lot can reside on the SUN's 1.3 GByte hard disk. I even start programs
directly for the SUN disk. The program comes up a bit slower, but once it's
up, there is no performance degredation.

The NuvoLink is also very robust. We tried using Dyna and Shiva ethernet
cards in the Mac LC including the co-processor option. Both cards caused
the Mac's to crash unexpectedly but frequently. Perhaps the cards can not
cope with the Ethernet here, although all other cards from Apple work fine.
They do not include the co-processor option though. Maybe there is some
relation between the two? Anyway, NovoLink works! Don't get me wrong, I'm
in no way affiliated with NuvoTech, but I'm just satisfied with the
product. Of course, it is more expensive than a gateway, but your loss will
be a speed degradation of at least 10 times (that's what it seams like when
ever I send documents to the Physics Faculty).

I hope this helps!

Andre'.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Andre' .C. van der Ham                   EMAIL: [e-mail]
Delft University of Technology, Dep.of Electrical Eng., Control Lab.,
P.O. Box 5031, 2600 GA  Delft, The Netherlands.
Phone: [phone], Fax: [phone]
---------------------------------------------------------------------

==============================

From:   IN%"[e-mail]" 23-JUN-1992 12:39:54.88
To:     [e-mail]
CC:
Subj:   AppleTalk-Ethernet interfaces

To:

Alun J. Carr, Mech. Eng. Dept., UCD, Belfield, Dublin
4, Ireland.
Internet: [e-mail]

We have a company-wide Ethernet and a department-wide
AppleTalk network.
To connect both we first had a software solution. Now
we have a hardware
solution.

The software solution:
One Mac was connected on both Ethernet and AppleTalk.
An Ethernet card is
neccesary. On this machine an Apple Internet Router was
running. This
router only routs the AppleTalk protokol, but all
functions of the selection
window like AppleShare, BroadCast and LaserWriter were
available for all
Macs and Printers on both of the nets. For Macs on the
Ethernet the
AppleTalk net is a selectable AppleTalk zone and vice
versa.
The disatvantage is the low performance of the router
mac if the net
is bussy.

The hardware solution:
Now we have a KINETICS FastPath4 Gateway which is able
to conect Ethernet
(thinwire or Backbone) with AppleTalk. The main
advantage beside the
performance is, that the bridge is able to route also
TCP/IP beside AppleTalk.
This allows to use the Mac as an TCP/IP host to run
X-Window sessions on
TCP/IP machines, or to make direct mailing from and to
the Mac.
The price of the gateway is about $6000.- with S/W and
will be delivered
by:    Kinetics, Inc.
       2500 Camino Diablo
       Walnut Creek, California

The FastPath is now running for a 3/4 year without
problems and could be
highly recommended.

Best Regards, Nick Faller

P.S.:I'll send the massage via two ways. Plese request
which one you received!

Space Division, Dornier GmbH, Friedrichshafen, Germany
E-Mail:  [e-mail] or
         [e-mail]

==============================

From:   IN%"[e-mail]" 23-JUN-1992 16:38:03.40
To:     [e-mail]
CC:
Subj:   GatorBox, FastPath, and SCSI connections.

Hello,
I have had great success connecting 20 or so Macs to the Internet using
a GatorBox from Cayman Systems.  You can also run software on the GatorBox
which will allow any Mac AppleShare client to access NFS volumes (SUN, Next,
etc.).  If your system it may be advantageous to get this because of this
capability.  The GatorBox is pretty pricey (educational US price „ $1200,
with GatorShare (the software I mentioned) for another $1200 US).  This
is only cost effective if you have alot of Macs or require access to NFS
volumes or want a centrally maintained system.

Otherwise you may want to look at buying a SCSI connection to Ethernet.
There are several people that make these.  Two I can think of are
Asante and Nuvolink.  These would not require a GatorBox, instead it
would directly connect the mac to Ethernet through the SCSI port.

Cayman System
26 Landsdowne Street
Cambridge, MA 02139
[phone]

Asante Technologies, Inc
404 Tasman Drive
Sunnyvale. CA 94089
[phone]

Sorry do not have the address for Nuvolink handy.  FastPath is another
product like the GatorBox, but it doesn't allow you access to NFS volumes.
If you have anonymous ftp access check out cayman.com.  This ftp sight
has all of Cayman's software along with some free utilities.

take care
tim cera
[e-mail]

==============================

From:   IN%"[e-mail]"  "Mark Nutter, Apple Support" 23-JUN-1992 16
   :40:51.59
To:     [e-mail]
CC:
Subj:   AppleTalk/Ethernet gateways

I got a Shiva FastPath V gateway, and am using it much as you describe:  2 Macs
and a printer on AppleTalk, and the FastPath providing an Ethernet gateway.  At
first, the FastPath had a tendency to crash every other day or so, but the tech
support folks at Shiva were very helpful and very persistent, and we finally
got an updated version of the FastPath driver software that was able to
survive.  Since that time I've only had to reboot the FastPath once (it's been
several months now, and I'm pleased).

In order to communicate over the Ethernet, I have had to install MacTCP, which
came with the FastPath.  For communication software, I have downloaded BYU
Telnet (free), LeeMail (shareware), and Nuntius (free newsreader).  Commercial
options include VersaTerm and VersaTerm Pro, which I believe includes a
CommToolBox implementation of MacTCP.

Let's see, what else can I say.  Oh, the FastPath was fairly pricey, at
US$1700, though it was worth it for us, since we are contemplating setting up
Mac networks with numerous stations, and when (if?) we ever get our
long-anticipated campus-wide Ethernet, my experience with the FastPath will be
quite useful.  I have had to coordinate with our local Ethernet network manager
to do things like designating an Internet address for each of my Macs, and
setting up all the special settings (Decnet node? Subnet number? etc. etc.).
Not too difficult as long as you have a knowledgeable Ethernet guru handy.

That's about all I can think of to say for now.  If you have any specific
questions, I'd be happy to try and answer them.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Nutter                                  Internet: [e-mail]
Apple Support Manager                          BITNET: MANUTTER@IUP
Indiana University of Pennsylvania
G-4 Stright Hall, IUP
Indiana, PA 15705
"My horoscope says today is a bad day to be superstitious."
=============================================================================

==============================

From:   IN%"[e-mail]" 23-JUN-1992 20:40:38.94
To:     [e-mail]
CC:
Subj:   Ethernet <-> AppleTalk

I use a Shiva FastPath.  It works great and I have had no problems with it.

David Fiel  *  [e-mail]

==============================

From:   IN%"[e-mail]"  "Mark Nutter, Apple Support" 24-JUN-1992 00
   :37:59.89
To:     [e-mail]
CC:
Subj:   RE: AppleTalk/Ethernet gateways

>Mark,
>
>Thanks for the information.  Your setup sounds ideal.  We wouldn't be able
>to function as well as you, as only machines under Computer Centre control
>are permitted to have Internet addresses.  Do you need an Internet address
>to be able to ftp to/from other machines on the local Ethernet (if not,
>what do you use as an address)?
>
>Regards,
>
>Alun

I believe ftp (and maybe even TCP/IP) requires some kind of Internet address in
order to specify which machine is connecting to which, so unless you can
persuade your Computer Centre to share some of their Internet addresses with
you, you may not be able to use an Ethernet gateway.  The FastPath and MacTCP
both support dynamically-allocated Internet addresses as well as
statically-assigned addresses, so maybe your Computer Centre would be willing
to consider one or the other of those options.  Static addresses are better for
the sake of some Mac programs, however, so you should try and get a static
address if you can.

Good luck!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Nutter                                  Internet: [e-mail]
Apple Support Manager                          BITNET: MANUTTER@IUP
Indiana University of Pennsylvania
G-4 Stright Hall, IUP
Indiana, PA 15705
"My horoscope says today is a bad day to be superstitious."
=============================================================================

==============================

From:   IN%"[e-mail]" 24-JUN-1992 04:37:27.52
To:     [e-mail]
CC:
Subj:   Hardware ? on info-mac

Alun,

I *think* I understand your question.  If you are
asking about the AppleTalk net itself, just get
PhoneNet connectors and regular RJ-II phone
cable.  If the DW-C is AppleTalk-capable
(I believe that it is) then you have no problem.

As to connecting an AppleTalk net to EtherNet,
you have basically 2 choices.
- Shiva FastPath Box ($1899)
- Cayman GatorBox ($2199???)

You also need some assistance from your netmanager
as the box must be recognized by the net outside.
No, those are *not* misprints on the prices - these
things cost big bucks.  There may be a means of doing
this that I am not aware of, or I may have mis-understood
your question.  If so, sorry for wasting your time.

PS - the bandwidth is as high (220K or 760K) as your AppleTalk
network will run.
Peter Gerhardstein ([e-mail])